Democracy for Vancouver

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1. Most of the troubles started when parents were not allowed to spank their children, and the end of the draft. One thing the military is really good at is installing responsibility in every individual.

   And having generations of people on welfare, most of them now think they are entitled to it, same as public housing for the poor. Yes, we have an obligation to help the young and the old, but how far does that help have to go for the young? All through their lives? The old saying, “the good Lord helps them who helps themselves.” comes to mind.

   Why are they poor? There are many successful people that came from poor backgrounds. They worked, busted their butts, got an education, and put it to use. Now the liberal base wants to tax us more and more to help people who won’t help themselves. And I’m not talking about the elderly here, nor the young kids. But these young kids turn into adults, and then become senior citizens. Do we/can we afford to take care of them forever. I don’t think I should have to help some lazy idiot who won’t help themselves.

   And the elected bottom feeders will use any excuse, and lie, etc. to keep feeding from the public well. It’s time we change some rules and laws about these bottom feeders.

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   1. Above written by Allen on January 11th, 2008 at 10:45 am (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

2. Yikes.

   More than 50% of bankruptcies are the result of major medical issues - are these people “lazy idiots who won’t help themselves”?

   And as for “why people are poor”? You say those who have succeeded “worked, busted their butts, got an education, and put it to use.”

   What if you live in a state like Louisiana, which for decades STARVED New Orleans schools? See, most of Louisiana is rural and white and conservative, and they didn’t see any reason to try to improve the lot of the majority poor, black Democrats in New Orleans. If an education isn’t available to you, how are you supposed to succeed?

   What if you have good schools, but you’re too hungry or too tired to concentrate in school because your parents are making minimum wage, working a couple of jobs a piece, and you (the kid) have to take care of your siblings, do the wash, maybe work a paying job of your own all before getting to your homework? And what if your family earns too much to qualify for food stamps, but is barely eeking out a living with high rents and rising fuel costs (which affect the cost of everything else you need)?

   I can’t imagine being as cynical as you are, Allen. Most people aren’t lazy or just trying to get a free ride, and the working poor in this country work harder than anyone. And two of the biggest free-riders in the country are Bush & Cheney, who both made their fortunes on the backs of sweetheart government deals with private industry.

   Think about how much of the federal budget goes to the military, and what good just 10% of that money could do to improve education, infrastructure and economic opportunity, instead of being put into the pockets of Blackwater, Halliburton, Lockheed Martin, etc.

   Why don’t you look here if you want to see who sucks hardest at the government tit…

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   2. Above written by slim on January 11th, 2008 at 11:50 am (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

3. Slim, I cannot argue about your % numbers, as they are probably understated. We still have, so far, as I know the right to move from one state to another. I realize that is not a answer. More taxes are not the answer either. Bill Cosby said it correctly, the young had better bend over, pull up their socks, and get to work, studying, etc.

   I realize there are many people, working poor, that cannot get ahead, because they are in low paying jobs, and are tired at the end of the work day. And I do feel sorry for them, but as you must realize, it is up to the people in every community to change things if they can. Neither you nor I can help the poor in rural LA.

   So, what is your plan to help them all, without raising taxes. I’m on a fixed income, I cannot afford more taxes and fees, from neither political party do gooders.

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   3. Above written by Allen on January 11th, 2008 at 12:45 pm (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

4. We are all Americans. It hurts all of us if schoolchildren in Louisiana or or Mississippi or Compton or the Bronx are underserved.

   I don’t want to raise your taxes. Don’t you realize that being on a fixed income you are paying MORE than your fair share because of the tax breaks the top 2% receive? I just want to take back the tax breaks the top 2% received in the last 7 years that have put us on the verge of a recession - and dug our government into the biggest debt the planet has ever seen. Scaling back our military expenditures would keep your taxes from rising, too.

   The GOP does a great job of turning the middle class and the poor against each other. If the middle class is busy blaming the poor for their own problems, they won’t look at how the rich, and corporations, are using our infrastructure to make themselves richer while taking their profits - and American jobs - overseas.

   Believe me, the GOP is thrilled that you complain about the lazy idiots who won’t help themselves’ instead of asking why CEOs now make 300 times what the average worker makes (instead of the 45x they made 30 years ago) - and getting that fat Bush taxcut to boot.

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   4. Above written by slim on January 11th, 2008 at 3:24 pm (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

5. Slim, I agree with you 1000% about the Greedy Old Pervert party. And I damn sure know how much I pay in taxes. And the ultra rich can afford to pay more in taxes, as they make most of their money off our backs/labor.

   I had a teacher who, when going to college, worked two jobs, took night classes, more or less lived and slept in his car. Yes, it took him awhile to get his degree. Tired, overworked, etc. he overcame the odds because he had the drive to get ahead. To me, and I admit I may be wrong, but anyone who has the desire to get out of poverty can do so. It may take several years, and one hell of a hardship, but anyone can do it. And that teacher I mentioned, isn’t the only one. I also did it, and I give thanks to the military, because of the discipline I received when on active duty. But first and foremost, I give credit to my parents, because they established a work ethic in me.

   And IMHO, when the parents could not discipline their children, and the draft was done away with, this county lost a hell of a lot. I freely admit I may be wrong, and Slim, I’m not going to argue with you, as most of the time you are correct. However in this case, I feel you are wrong on several points. It all boils down to the individual, what does that individual want? Stay in poverty, or overcome it. Yes to overcome poverty is one hell of a hardship, but there is no excuse that a person can’t do it. Work, being tired, piss poor teachers, etc. it can be overcome if a person wants to do so.

   And we both know the elected bottom feeders want to keep the status quo. But no one person has to stay in poverty. It is not easy to get out of poverty, but that is up to each person, stay or improve yourself. It’s also time for the people that are in poverty to decide what they want to do, and then do it, if they want to escape poverty. Having said that, I do not want to be taxed more to help people that won’t help themselves. Cynical, no I’m not. I am more than willing to help someone who is helping themselves. But I damn sure won’t help some lazy a–Hole who won’t try and help themselves.

   And a lot of us retired, and working class feel the same way. You, as a individual, have to be responsible for yourself, and don’t blame the system for the so called “never had a chanse syndrome” as we all know, escape is possible. Yes, I will be the first to admit, it is hard to do, and while doing it, you suffer huge lose of sleep, all kinds of hardship of various things. And like most things, you will reap the awards for your hard work and sacrifice’s.

   And Slim, if I’m wrong, please explain (in detail, if possible) where I’m wrong in my thinking. I really do value your thoughts. And like I said, I am not going to argue with you, (most time your thoughts and % are very good), but as a old retired fart, I also have my thoughts, and I really do enjoy exchanging thoughts about different things. Also, HAPPY NEW YEAR to you and your family.

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   5. Above written by Allen on January 11th, 2008 at 8:01 pm (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

6. Allen,

   Thanks for your good wishes. I appreciate the conversation, too.

   I don’t agree with you on the issue of people being able to overcome their circumstances by force of will, because your experience seems largely anecdotal, and the history of the U.S. shows just how hard it is to overcome entrenched prejudices and the financial/social circumstances that those prejudices create.

   I grew up in the South in the 70s, with a lawyer dad and a stay-at-home mom. They did not believe in sparing the rod - we had daily discipline (more often verbal than corporal) that paled next to anything any of my friends had to deal with at home. I was automatically grounded not only if I got anything below a B on my report card, but if I was over 130 lbs. (I’m 5′8″.)

   What did all that discipline do for me? I basically failed out of college my first year, because I refused to submit myself to the same strictures that I had received at home. I worked my way back enough to go to law school later on, but I was rejected based on my low GPA the first year I applied, and only made it in the next year because I miraculously got a perfect LSAT score.

   But what I saw happen in reverse was even more disturbing: my high school was half black, and the black students had to fight for themselves to get into the upper level courses. Kids who might have had the ability, but were never given the chance, were shunted into the lower level classes, and onto the VoTech track. Their parents weren’t included in the community of white parents-school board meeting participants, etc., and so they weren’t naturally in the mix to get their kids on a higher track. And no one could say that their parents spared them discipline - the African American students I knew were held to a much straighter line (and were much more likely to go to church) than many of the white students I knew.

   There were several African American students, male and female, that I knew because we had PE together, who were easily bright enough to be in my AP classes. When I asked why they weren’t, I’d get a laugh and a, “Why should I when it’s not going to get me anywhere?” And since I talked to people at my parents’ (whitres only) country club who still believed - in the LATE 70s - that slavery was good for the slaves because they didn’t know how to take care of each other anyway, I can’t say that my fellow students were wrong in their assessment.

   If all of the adults in your life are pushing you down, it takes a helluva lot of self-confidence to push back. I didn’t have that kind of self-confidence until I turned 35 or so, and I’m an upper-middle-class white woman. I am not going to put the burden on a 13 y.o. kid to fight for him or herself - we as a community have to take up the case for them.

   Cheers,
   slim

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   6. Above written by slim on January 14th, 2008 at 2:12 pm (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

7. Slim, I think you’re coming from a home that had a lot of abuse. From my understanding, that’s not what Allen is talking about. He’s talking about discipline. And the problem with both ideas is that it is very hard to change or stop someone from abuse or discipline because they believe they are justified by what they’re doing.

   I also think it is incredibly hard to enforce everyone to take personal responsibility. I’m 18 years old and I still live with my parents and that’s basically our mantra. Take personal responsibility for what you do and say. That doesn’t mean I’m not going to take care of my mom and dad when they’re too old to take care of themselves. But that also doesn’t mean I’m not going to take care of a stranger who has abused my generosity.

   I think there’s a balance between being an “cynical” and a “socialist” when it comes to these kinds of things. But from my understanding, it often takes us to see both extremes through experience in order to fully understand that.

   I know my voice is a young one. And I truly hope that I haven’t offended either of you. I enjoyed hearing both of your opinions and it has really opened up my mind wider.

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   7. Above written by Miss Mary on January 29th, 2008 at 4:25 pm (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

8. Miss Mary, you have not offended me, I’m too old to take offense at anything or any person. I just roll with the tide, so to speak.

   Self discipline, in my opinion, is lacking in a lot of people, not just young men and women, but also in older people. That is one reason I am for a draft for everyone. Besides the discipline, it also teaches a person personal responsibility, and most important, team work.

   Slim and I have different views on some items, and I will argue with her, but I also respect her views, even though (IMO) she may be wrong. I also respect her as a person, even though we have never met, except on this blog. Again, in my opinion, and I hope Slim feels the same way, when people can discuss and have a (friendly) argument about different things in life, it does open a persons mind to other thoughts about the issue in discussion.

   And as a young person, keep making your voice heard, as you a part of the future. I’m just enjoying my retirement, as I’m part of the past. Please do not let anyone silence you, your voice, and many other young people need to be heard by the older generation. And continue your education, it will be important to you further down the path of life.

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   8. Above written by Allen on January 30th, 2008 at 9:12 am (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

9. Miss Mary, you do not offend me at all. I am thrilled that you are part of this community - we need more young people jumping in with us and carrying things forward.

   Thank you for your intelligent and thoughtful comments. Stay involved! And congrats on having such a good relationship with your folks.

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   9. Above written by slim on January 30th, 2008 at 11:43 am (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).