Democracy for Vancouver

15 Comments so far (Add 1 more)

1. Perhaps you should do some research before you wax unfortunate: Gov. Gregoire and most Dems support SJR 8206. In fact, Gregoire gave $25k from the Legacy Fund to support it.

   It really hurts your credibility when your facts are wrong.

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   1. Above written by Joseph Smith on October 24th, 2007 at 2:11 pm (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

2. Playing “Pimp my Blog, cuz I sure need the hits!” I see…

   I guess we just vote this way just because you say so, huh?? If that’s all the better you can base your opinions, no wonder you’re out looking for visitors.

   Thanks for the invite…

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   2. Above written by Chief Wahoo on October 24th, 2007 at 4:10 pm (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

3. Almost everybody agrees that we need a state rainy day fund. The last time we hit a bad spell the money was taken from the public employee pension fund. How would it work out if someone dipped into your 401K? You simply cannot replace the loss easily.

   The prison labor bill does a couple of things. It gives inmates something to do, have a modicum of spending money, and helps them pay back some restitution owed their victims. With the caveat (in the proposal) that free enterprise is maintained, this is a good piece of legislation. As a former prison counselor and parole officer, I’d advise voting yes. Makes prisoners much more manageable.

   Part of the problem with the original posting is that knee jerk reactions based on soley party affiliation of ideas is reinforced. America has had enough of this. REALLY

   http://www.patservesus.com

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   3. Above written by Pat Campbell on October 24th, 2007 at 8:02 pm (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

4. If work will help control the prisoners, etc, then why not start using chain gang type work? It would benefit the state as a whole. That sheriff in AZ has the right idea with his prisoners, should be used in our area as well.

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   4. Above written by Allen on October 25th, 2007 at 6:18 am (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

5. Not all prisoners are safe to be out of the prison gates even on chain gangs. Prison Industries operates within the walls so to speak.

   To address your other comment, state prisoners rehabilitated the Yacolt Burn area to the East of Vancouver, maintain local trails and parks, and work on all kinds of projects in and around Vancouver. The same occurs out of all our minimum security institutions.

   Whenever there is a forest fire or a fire in the Gorge crews from Larch Corrections Center are dispatched.

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   5. Above written by Pat Campbell on October 25th, 2007 at 8:03 am (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

6. Actually, the local Democratic party hasn’t issued any endorsements on anything for 2007, unless they’re keeping it a secret, so this isn’t really a partisan posting. I’m just observing that the Republicans are actually doing something in non-partisan races, while the Dems sleep at the wheel.

   The reading I’ve seen on 8212 is that the language is too wide for abuse. The concept sounds good, but I remember way too many abuses of prison labor down in the Oregon correctional system, so there you have it. Also, if you’re holding up Sheriff Joe Arpaio as some great example of prison labor management, than this blog has truly gone reactionary.

   8206 is actually opposed by Jim Moeller and Helen Sommers, which is a pretty broad spectrum in the House Democratic caucus.

   Oh, and Chief, I’ve been posting here since DFV’s inception, so thank you for your kind words. It’s only after this blog decided to focus on more national issues that I even rolled out my own blog, which has a more local focus. I’m so glad you’ve decided to volunteer and give DFV a sharper editorial focus.

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   6. Above written by Aneurin on October 25th, 2007 at 10:47 am (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

7. Oregon did have its problems, but we had widespread prison reform here in Washington State following the Walla Walla riots. Part of the problem was and still is having meaningful activities for inmates with work being at the top of the list.

   With several of these proposals, there was a legislative consensus to put them to the voter. Certainly, there are a few like Sommers and Moeller who disagree but if they are such a “broad spectrum” of the Democratic caucus and the Democrats hold a majority I have a hard time reaching the source of your conclusion using an anterior approach…

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   7. Above written by Pat Campbell on October 25th, 2007 at 11:37 am (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

8. Points taken, Pat.

   On 8206, I guess I’m tired of micromanaging state budget writers. I may disagree with Helen Sommers on quite a few issues, but locking up $430 million from next year’s budget doesn’t seem like a good idea.

   On 8212, my core problem with this is that on one hand state is outsourcing my job to India (the Judicial Information System project) while then arguing for an expansion of prison labor. Do you see the problem with that? I literally am waiting for the day when all of the unemployed IT workers are sent off to debtor’s prison to then work as inmate labor. Crazy, I know.

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   8. Above written by Aneurin on October 25th, 2007 at 12:09 pm (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

9. I see your point about the outsourcing. It looks to me that 8212 could be seen as giving businesses more protection from inmate labor using companies than those who work for the state like yourself get from foreign outsourcing.

   I don’t know if you are a state employee or contractor, but you are a resident. That should count.

   I’ve had it with these tax payer paid schemes that result in the net outsource of our country’s wealth. Why push for a world class education system if we are going to off shore those skills for short term gain at our ports and in our very government?

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   9. Above written by Pat Campbell on October 25th, 2007 at 4:45 pm (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

10. I agree with your criticism of micromanaging budget writers (RE: 8206) but my understanding is that such a rainy day fund is not permitted under current law. Is this true? In other words, would this enable legislators to create a rainy day fund?

    Pat C., I think the private enterprise is a killer. I take the concept of redemption through labor seriously, but for some reason in this country it seems to be either the chain gang (without PE) or the sweatshop (with PE). Administering such programs under a common law system seems to be well-nigh impossible without grievous abuse.

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    10. Above written by James R MacLean on October 25th, 2007 at 11:12 pm (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

11. Yes, it would create a rainy day fund. Much better than raiding the pension funds which means the debt plus lost investment returns have to be made up eventually by the tax payer.

    The culture of the Washington Department of Corrections changed in the late 1970’s. Inmates have access to a well run grievance process and the courts if abuses occur. Certainly, there are problems that develop but they eventually get attention. L&I covers inmates in some ways such as in prison industries and the forest crews. The former wide spread problems resulted in the prisoner rights movement, court ordered changes, and more professional attitudes.

    I am speaking as a person who had a number of difficulties with the management of DOC.

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    11. Above written by Pat Campbell on October 26th, 2007 at 7:38 am (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

12. Washblog has a post on 8212, Like most things, it is complicated. Seems like there are better ways to improve the prison system than this legislation.

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    12. Above written by bushtool on October 26th, 2007 at 8:48 pm (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

13. From the WashBlog article…
    
    “So, in order to be a slave in this country, you must be convicted of a crime. Slavery is legal in our country.”

    If you accept the premise that the criminal justice system is merely legalized slave labor, then this article might make sense to you.

    I reject that premise because we incarcerate people as punishment, not to make slaves of them. Providing useful work to do as a means to teach some sort of job skill, and as a means to gainfully occupy prisoner’s time is not slavery.

    Now we can go all the way back to the old chain gangs, hard labor making gravel with a sledge hammer, Cool Hand Luke and all, and compare that time to where we are today. Under the conditions at that time, you could argue acase about defacto slavery, cruel and unusual punishment, and in fact those arguments were successfully made which is why those extreme practices are no more in this Country.

    I voted for 8212, because it sounds reasonable and customary to me. And the beauty of our system is that we can always repeal it or fine tune it down the road if it becomes necessary. You can “what if” anything to death if you can think up enough hypothetical ways that it might go wrong. At some point you have to give something a try and see where the real problems are.

    Approve, and monitor…

    Note to aneurin, if it’s local discussion you want, try http://www.clarkblog.org (I know how to PMB effectively too…)

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    13. Above written by Chief Wahoo on October 27th, 2007 at 6:02 am (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

14. Chief Wahoo,

    I don’t portend to be an expert on 8212 and you are right about looking for perfect legislation will get you no legislation.

    However, our criminal justice system is clearly a justice system that at times is criminal. It is biased towards blacks and other minorities. It locks up too many people for victim-less drug crimes.

    Off the topic somewhat, I admit to a rather severe bias because a personal friend of my family was sentenced to life in prison with no parole through a comedy of errors and ineptitude by everyone involved. IMO he was completely innocent and even if he was not, the complete lack of evidence that sent him to jail was appalling and proved to me without a doubt that our system is corrupt to the bone. To make a long story short, after spending tens of thousands of dollars on appeals and what not, he was released from prison after 4 and 1/2 years on a technicality that only would have happened because he had enough people that cared about him to finance getting him out. I think O.J. proved that with money you can get away with murder. So I am suspicious of just about everything about the justice and prison system.

    Again with my limited information on the subject, legislation that helps promote private industry profits within the prison system smacks to me of enabling the same privatization kind of system that has led to an unaccountable privatized army in Iraq and a privatized health system that sucks. As much as I think government is inept, I also think deregulation and privatization has caused more problems than it has fixed.

    Allowing private businesses to profit off of prison labor just seems to be asking for more problems.

    But I still have not made up my mind on this issue. Hopefully before I vote, I will be more comfortable about how to vote this one.

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    14. Above written by bushtool on October 27th, 2007 at 6:39 am (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).

15. As a point of order, I always vote against the prison industrial complex.

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    15. Above written by arturo on October 28th, 2007 at 7:30 am (replies, if any, are attributed separately above).