Comments on: you first, brian http://www.democracyforvancouver.org/2007/09/12/you-first-brian/ Federal, Washington State and Clark County Politics Sat, 11 Oct 2008 01:08:34 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Pat Campbell http://www.democracyforvancouver.org/2007/09/12/you-first-brian/#comment-38961 Pat Campbell Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:46:01 +0000 http://www.democracyforvancouver.org/2007/09/12/you-first-brian/#comment-38961 I stongly agree with Brian Baird that the mess in Iraq is directly related to some of the worse actions ever by our government. I agree that we need to take responsibility to repair that damage as much as we can. Ongoing military involvement is not going to do that. We need to step back and out militarily, see what develops, and do all we can to help the resulting situation in peaceful, non-military ways. There is going to be a lot more missery before this is over. I think some of our problems in the US will be more personalized and intense than just effects on our "military industrial complex." Still, those problems will be small compared to those that will ravage the people of Iraq and their neighbors. Remember too that the war on terror will have to be refocused and will continue for years. Iraq has set that war back in many ways by lending credence to the idea that this is a war of crusaders against the muslims. I stongly agree with Brian Baird that the mess in Iraq is directly related to some of the worse actions ever by our government. I agree that we need to take responsibility to repair that damage as much as we can. Ongoing military involvement is not going to do that. We need to step back and out militarily, see what develops, and do all we can to help the resulting situation in peaceful, non-military ways.

There is going to be a lot more missery before this is over. I think some of our problems in the US will be more personalized and intense than just effects on our “military industrial complex.” Still, those problems will be small compared to those that will ravage the people of Iraq and their neighbors.

Remember too that the war on terror will have to be refocused and will continue for years. Iraq has set that war back in many ways by lending credence to the idea that this is a war of crusaders against the muslims.

]]> By: bushtool http://www.democracyforvancouver.org/2007/09/12/you-first-brian/#comment-38890 bushtool Thu, 13 Sep 2007 02:38:53 +0000 http://www.democracyforvancouver.org/2007/09/12/you-first-brian/#comment-38890 [quote post="829"]That may be Bush's agenda, but if it's the true agenda of the American People, then we deserve what we get.[/quote] I think it is the true agenda of the American government and transnational corporate interests. And they are the ones running things. As to the American people, almost no one in power is really listening to them nor do they care. As to the Iraqi Parliament, a government set up by and being controlled by us or at the very least you have to say extremely influenced by us since we are occupying their country is not going to tell us to leave nor would it make any difference if they did. The latest poll again says 79% of the Iraqi people want us to leave. That is all that should matter in our decision since the Iraqi government is by definition biased. It's ironic that we want us out and they want us out but we will continue to "stay the course" until "victory". Sorry if I sound cynical but that is about all I have left regarding these matters. [quote post="829"]That may be Bush’s agenda, but if it’s the true agenda of the American People, then we deserve what we get.[/quote]

I think it is the true agenda of the American government and transnational corporate interests. And they are the ones running things. As to the American people, almost no one in power is really listening to them nor do they care.

As to the Iraqi Parliament, a government set up by and being controlled by us or at the very least you have to say extremely influenced by us since we are occupying their country is not going to tell us to leave nor would it make any difference if they did.

The latest poll again says 79% of the Iraqi people want us to leave. That is all that should matter in our decision since the Iraqi government is by definition biased.

It’s ironic that we want us out and they want us out but we will continue to “stay the course” until “victory”.

Sorry if I sound cynical but that is about all I have left regarding these matters.

]]> By: Chad Lupkes http://www.democracyforvancouver.org/2007/09/12/you-first-brian/#comment-38889 Chad Lupkes Thu, 13 Sep 2007 02:15:07 +0000 http://www.democracyforvancouver.org/2007/09/12/you-first-brian/#comment-38889 That may be Bush's agenda, but if it's the true agenda of the American People, then we deserve what we get. If the Iraqi Parliament votes to ask us to leave, we should leave. I'll agree with that. And I'd help organize the political infrastructure in Iraq to put the grassroots pressure to bear on those legislatures to make that happen if the people of Iraq want it. However, I don't speak Arabic. That may be Bush’s agenda, but if it’s the true agenda of the American People, then we deserve what we get.

If the Iraqi Parliament votes to ask us to leave, we should leave. I’ll agree with that. And I’d help organize the political infrastructure in Iraq to put the grassroots pressure to bear on those legislatures to make that happen if the people of Iraq want it. However, I don’t speak Arabic.

]]> By: bushtool http://www.democracyforvancouver.org/2007/09/12/you-first-brian/#comment-38868 bushtool Thu, 13 Sep 2007 00:42:39 +0000 http://www.democracyforvancouver.org/2007/09/12/you-first-brian/#comment-38868 Baird "speaks of victory". <a href="http://www.opednews.com/author/author2.html" rel="nofollow"> Rob Kall</a> has an answer for him in this article, "<a href="http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_rob_kall_070912_time_to_confront_the.htm" rel="nofollow">Time to Confront the Desperate Losers Who Speak of Victory in Iraq</a>" but IMO confronting is not going to make a difference. Only a groundswell of opposition to the leaders who want to continue the occupation (one of which is now Brian Baird) will make a difference. Baird “speaks of victory”. Rob Kall has an answer for him in this article, “Time to Confront the Desperate Losers Who Speak of Victory in Iraq” but IMO confronting is not going to make a difference. Only a groundswell of opposition to the leaders who want to continue the occupation (one of which is now Brian Baird) will make a difference.

]]> By: bushtool http://www.democracyforvancouver.org/2007/09/12/you-first-brian/#comment-38848 bushtool Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:36:28 +0000 http://www.democracyforvancouver.org/2007/09/12/you-first-brian/#comment-38848 Slim and Chad, thanks for the great posts. Chad, While I agree with what you think we should be doing in Iraq, would you not agree our real agenda is to secure a Middle East stronghold and seize control of Middle East oil all the while enriching the military-industrial complex? If these are the underlying motives of our presence in their country, do you think they will ever trust us enough to allow us to help them? Why should they? How could they? It is pretty difficult to assist people you are harming at the same time. Slim and Chad, thanks for the great posts.

Chad, While I agree with what you think we should be doing in Iraq, would you not agree our real agenda is to secure a Middle East stronghold and seize control of Middle East oil all the while enriching the military-industrial complex?

If these are the underlying motives of our presence in their country, do you think they will ever trust us enough to allow us to help them? Why should they? How could they?

It is pretty difficult to assist people you are harming at the same time.

]]> By: Chad Lupkes http://www.democracyforvancouver.org/2007/09/12/you-first-brian/#comment-38846 Chad Lupkes Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:05:10 +0000 http://www.democracyforvancouver.org/2007/09/12/you-first-brian/#comment-38846 Let me put this into terms that political activists here in Washington can understand. How many Precinct Committee Officers of the various political groups exist in Iraq? Crazy question? I don't think so. Thom Hartmann just said it out loud. Democracy is a journey, not a destination. What leads to peaceful democracy is democratic processes, not military occupations. We're not going to solve the political problems in Iraq until we push political solutions. That means empowering the people of Iraq in political institutions that they develop themselves. I want to go back to principles: Engage, Educate and Empower. What we have done in Iraq is to engage them in a military conflict, their institutions of learning are under fire because they are in a military conflict, and their own source of empowerment is picking up a gun and fighting in that military conflict. The Iraqi people don't trust their neighbors. Or if they do, it's because they've gone around and pushed out anyone they don't want to try and trust. That kind of segregation of society has a parallel in US History. It's called the South after the Civil War. If it's not time to bring our troops home, it's at least time to teach them how to speak Arabic and Parsi, and put them to work rebuilding the institutions of governance instead of continuing to solve problems by pointing guns in people's faces. Let me put this into terms that political activists here in Washington can understand. How many Precinct Committee Officers of the various political groups exist in Iraq?

Crazy question? I don’t think so. Thom Hartmann just said it out loud. Democracy is a journey, not a destination. What leads to peaceful democracy is democratic processes, not military occupations. We’re not going to solve the political problems in Iraq until we push political solutions. That means empowering the people of Iraq in political institutions that they develop themselves.

I want to go back to principles: Engage, Educate and Empower. What we have done in Iraq is to engage them in a military conflict, their institutions of learning are under fire because they are in a military conflict, and their own source of empowerment is picking up a gun and fighting in that military conflict.

The Iraqi people don’t trust their neighbors. Or if they do, it’s because they’ve gone around and pushed out anyone they don’t want to try and trust. That kind of segregation of society has a parallel in US History. It’s called the South after the Civil War.

If it’s not time to bring our troops home, it’s at least time to teach them how to speak Arabic and Parsi, and put them to work rebuilding the institutions of governance instead of continuing to solve problems by pointing guns in people’s faces.

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